Transcript
[Car beeps and drives away. Traffic sounds turn into upbeat techno] Negatio structura by Loam Zoku – Composed and produced by Schuyler Lindberg and Y'honatex
Adam Huggins 00:13
Every day we each make choices, how to go from A to B, what to eat, what to buy most of those choices we made the day before. And the day before that, and soon they cease to be choices altogether. They become habits, shortcuts in life worn deep into the ground. The deeper they become, the harder it is to climb out, to move beyond the habitual and to see the whole field of possibilities.
Adam Huggins 0:52
But life may twist and turn and put a new path under our feet. We may be reminded of an array of options sweetened with carrots, or discouraged by sanctions. Those rewards and punishments might just be enough to convince us to change course. But until they become laws, they remain suggestions. And whether those suggestions are taken depends on the dragons of discredence. You can't see their bodies, but you can see their tracks. These are the dragons of climate inaction. Their habitat is in our minds. And this podcast is your field guide. Welcome to Chapter Four, Driving Decisions.
[Theme song] D7 by Loam Zoku – Composed and produced by Schuyler Lindberg and Y'honatex
Introductory Voiceover 01:48
This is Scales of Change: a field guide to the Dragons of Climate Inaction. Join us as we learn to spot them in the wild, and discover how they can be disarmed. Produced by Future Ecologies on the traditional territories of the Lekwungen and WSÁNEĆ peoples, with support from the University of Victoria.
Adam Huggins 2:23
Hey, this is Adam, and I'm here again with my co-host, Mendel.
Mendel Skulski 2:26
Hello.
Adam Huggins 2:27
And Professor Robert Gifford.
Robert Gifford 2:28
Hi. Nice to see you.
Adam Huggins 2:30
So, welcome back. We're now more than halfway through the series. If you're joining us for the first time, though, you might reasonably feel a little out of the loop when we use the term dragons. If that's you, it might help to put this episode on pause and start with the introduction to this series, entitled, A Theory of Change.
Mendel Skulski 2:49
Today, we'll be discussing the genus, Negatio, the dragons of discredence.
Robert Gifford 2:56
There's different kinds of discredence. Discredence, by the way is a word that I found in, in a very obscure, old version of Roget’s Thesaurus. Not really a commonly used word, but what I like to say is just look at the root they've cred in the middle and then you've got it.
[Low key, bass ambient]
Adam Huggins 3:12
Cred as in credit, or credible or incredulous. Basically, discredence means
Robert Gifford 3:19
I don't, I don't trust you. I don't believe you. That's what discredence is about. So you it ranges from the outright denialists, which are these days down into the single digits. So but they're loud. So I in one, in terms of number not so important, in terms of being loud and well-funded, important.
Mendel Skulski 3:39
Yeah, I, I don't expect too many climate deniers are tuned in right now.
Adam Huggins 3:44
Probably not. But they are definitely still out there. And since we're using the rules of animal nomenclature, we took the license of giving the Dragon of denial a tautonym, which just means that the genus and species name are the exact same, Negatio negatio.
Mendel Skulski 4:00
This sort of silliness would never be tolerated. If these were instead the seaweeds of inaction,
Adam Huggins 4:07
or the ferns of inaction,
Mendel Skulski 4:08
or the polypores of inaction,
Adam Huggins 3:53
Because you can only give tautonyms to animal species for whatever reason. In any case, these are dragons, which are animals, and the next one is Negatio suspicio, which is the dragon of mistrust.
Mendel Skulski 4:25
Right, so, this isn’t outright denial as in Negatio negatio. Negatio suspicio, is a kind of denial that's based on the messenger. If I already mistrust the government, then why would I believe them when they're telling me that climate change is a big problem?
Robert Gifford 4:43
You know, the unspoken part always is therefore I don't have to do anything because the scientists and the government people are just doing it for themselves and they're just making all this up.
[Carnival music] The Hunger Artist by Circus Homunculus
Mendel Skulski 4:52
You got to keep an eye out. There's a secret conspiracy to line the pockets of big nature and all these scientists are in on it.
Adam Huggins 5:03
Which sounds absurd on its face. But I feel like it's a strange artifact of the times that we're living in that it's actually progressives who are the ones who are trying to shore up the credibility of our largest public institutions. When historically, it's been environmentalists, and proponents of social justice that have been incredibly skeptical of these very same institutions. And, I think that's warranted, right? Like politicians and yes, even scientists, have made misleading or outright false statements often enough, that it would be a mistake to always take them at face value.
Mendel Skulski 5:44
Yeah, I mean, despite the fact that I see you recording with a tinfoil hat, uh,
Adam Huggins 5:49
What? This thing?
Mendel Skulski 5:49
I think, I think you're right. I, I think that, that mistrust though, turns into a dragon when every message to reduce pollution is dismissed solely because it comes from the government. And where you find that mistrust. You often also find another Dragon Negatio rebelis, the dragon of reactance.
[Upbeat trip-hop fades in] 17-17 by Lloyd Rich
Robert Gifford 6:12
Reactance is what I call the two year old dragon. It's uh, you can't make me do it. My freedom, my independence, mixed of course with a little bit of mistrust and whatever is you can't make me do it. In fact, what I'm going to do is go out and buy the biggest horsepower car I can find. I'm going to overturn my neighbor's recycling boxes on the street or whatever. It's like, not only, you can't make me do it, but I'm going to go in the opposite direction because, I don't want you controlling me.
Adam Huggins 6:50
Reactance is the dragon behind coal rollers, internet trolls, disaster tourists, police refusing to wear masks and whoever hosted that coronavirus party in Kentucky a few months back. They can be really discouraging. And, that's because they intend to discourage. Luckily, these folks are a lot louder than they are numerous. They should be removed from positions of power if they occupy them whenever possible. But, otherwise our best is to ignore it. And they're clearly not our target audience for this series. For those of us who aren't going to bite off our noses to spite our face, there are more subtle dragons of discredence.
Robert Gifford 7:33
What more often you see in the average person is perceived program inadequacy that is you know that, that premium for buying electric cars not enough to convince me that rebate for insulating my house is not enough to convince me so I'm not going to do it.
Adam Huggins 7:50
Robert is referring here to Negatio structura, the dragon of perceived program inadequacy.
Mendel Skulski 7:57
So, in this case, a government company has decided that they want to encourage some pro climate behavior, like switching to LEDs or driving electric cars or reducing home heating. But, if the incentive program, the reward isn't quite juicy enough, then some people just won't bother. And it's with this dragon Negatio structura, the dragon of perceived program inadequacy, that we'll be spending the rest of this chapter.
[Upbeat percussion music]
Adam Huggins 8:29
First up, we'd like to introduce you to Reuven Sussman.
Reuven Sussman 8:33
My name is Dr. Reuven Sussman. I'm a social psychologist, behavioral scientist and environmental psychologist here at the American Council for an energy efficient economy.
Mendel Skulski 8:43
Also known as ACEEE, for short.
Reuven Sussman 8:46
I'm the director of the program as it turns out, I'm Dr. Giffords student. So, I did my masters and my PhD with him at the University of Victoria.
Robert Gifford 8:54
I mean, Reuven is the most skilled, motivated, driven organizer that I've ever met [laughs]. I think he's so good at motivating people and driving forward with environmental issues. And that's why he has this very important position in Washington DC.
Mendel Skulski 9:13
Yes, a driven organizer, driving forward with environmental issues.
Robert Gifford 9:19
Did I say that?
Mendel Skulski 9:20
You said driving – a number of times.
Robert Gifford 9:21
[Laughs] Subconscious, I guess whatever.
Mendel Skulski 9:24
And that's maybe because, a lot of Reuven’s work is on transportation, and investigating what sort of policies can shift people towards low carbon choices.
[Music shifts to tranquil ambient] River of Mists by Soda Lite
Adam Huggins 9:35
And the biggest barrier to this kind of shift, the dragon of perceived program inadequacy,
Reuven Sussman 9:40
Perceived program inadequacy, is really about a program that is offered and not accepted for whatever reason. The other piece of that is that it's not program inadequacy, but perceived program inadequacy. That means that, if you can change people's perceptions of the program, you might be able to change participation without necessarily changing the program itself. So program may be useful, but the perception of it is not useful. Or there's some misconceptions about it that may prevent its participation.
Adam Huggins 10:10
And logically, the key to this dragon is with the folks designing these incentive programs in governments, institutions, or even corporations. That is to say, policymakers, and if that's you, this is your episode. But even if you're not a wonk, stick around, we'll make it worth your while. Okay, we've got one more introduction for you. This is Christine.
Christine Kormos 10:36
So my name is Christine Kormos. And I'm a behavioral scientist.
Adam Huggins 10:41
Christine and Reuven are frequent co-authors. And, since they're both behavioral scientists, we're going to give them a second, to spell out exactly what it is that they do. Christine?
Christine Kormos 10:51
Ah, so behavioral scientists basically aim to, uh to better understand some of the hidden influences that impact people's decision making in an effort to try to harness those influences to improve things such as government policies and programs.
Robert Gifford 11:09
Christine's work was so directly influential in setting the best level of premium for an electric car. Because, as you can guess, if you offer people more than they need, you're wasting taxpayers’ dollars, and if you don't offer them enough, they don't make the decision. So, Christine used very sophisticated statistical packages to understand the sweet spot where's the, the right amount to offer people so that it's not program inadequacy and it's not wasting taxpayers’ dollars.
Adam Huggins 11:44
Christine was also a grad student, alongside Reuven at UVic. She actually started her career as a biologist in Ontario, but found that she spent most of her time looking at all the negative impacts people are having on other species. It's important work to understand these downstream effects, but it's frankly, a huge bummer.
Christine Kormos 12:02
And, I just found the whole process to be very depressing. And then, and then throughout my undergrad, I came across just a one sentence in a textbook about environmental psychology. And I just thought, that's it. That's what I want to do. I want to study the impacts at the time where, where they're happening. So better understand human behavior, hopefully in the efforts to be able to to change this course of action.
Mendel Skulski 12:29
It must have been one hell of a sentence.
Christine Kormos 12:31
Oh, man, I don't remember the sentence at all. But it was like, it essentially was just one sentence about the fact that environmental psychology exists. It was something like and then there's this field that combines psychology with, you know, but the allure of working with Bob was what drew me to the west coast. So, I was very excited to be able to, to study under him.
Mendel Skulski 12:54
And how did he manage that?
Christine Kormos 12:56
Oh, well, he wrote he wrote this paper. It's why environmental psychology matters. And it was sort of this impassioned appeal essentially to the academic community and practitioners to take into account environmental psychology to help improve their efforts with respect to climate change, and, and it was a persuasive and engaging read like many of Bob's reads are. And after I read it, I just thought, okay, this is the supervisor for me.
Adam Huggins 13:29
And under Roberts supervision, Christine worked on finding that sweet spot for electric vehicle purchase incentives. Like how much is enough to encourage most people to make the switch without giving away more money than is necessary. How she did that was through this fancy kind of study, an experimental design known as a stated choice survey.
Mendel Skulski 13:52
Imagine getting a survey that offers you four imaginary vehicles, each with different attributes, drivetrain [Soundscape, sound of a tone],
Adam Huggins 14:00
For the non-gearheads and cyclists among us that means, like, internal combustion or plug in hybrid or full electric.
Mendel Skulski 14:07
Right, yeah. And other things like range, refueling costs, and of course, price. [Punctuated by organ notes]
[Trip-hop fades in] Morning by Damon Boucher
Christine Kormos 14:15
And, basically through the magic of statistics, you can present these choice sets to respondents in such a way that across all respondents, you're covering the entire suite of possible different combinations of attributes. And, of course, in the real world, you can't disentangle many of these attributes from each other. But in a choice experiment, you can then work backwards based on which vehicle they selected as the one they would choose. You can work backwards and you can deduce their willingness to pay for incremental variations in all of the attributes that you've laid out in your choice set.
Adam Huggins 14:57
In other words, you can measure exactly what it's worth to people to get a little extra range, a little more acceleration, or a reduction in their fuel needs.
Christine Kormos 15:06
So, you're able to disentangle the utility or sort of “likingness” associated with each of these attributes. And you can say how much that's impacting the respondents choice, and what their willingness to pay is for it.
Mendel Skulski 15:24
You might be wondering, why go through all the trouble, why set up all these comparative hypothetical imaginary cars, just to find out how much of a rebate it would take for most people to buy an electric car?
Adam Huggins 15:36
Yeah, I mean, why not, you know, just ask them.
Christine Kormos 15:41
People are just notoriously poor at making many rationally based decisions. I mean, what we find in the realm of transportation we find even, even when you ask people, you know, how much did you spend last month on gas. Oftentimes, people have no idea. You know, people aren't really keeping track of these kinds of economic factors in their life as closely as researchers would perhaps hope they would be.
Adam Huggins 16:13
Or maybe you're wondering, why couldn't you just test it for real outside of the lab, like, offer an incentive and just see how many people go for it.
Christine Kormos 16:21
Part of the challenge is because, oftentimes with this type of work, the dependent measure, dependent variable is the behavioral outcome. So, in the case of electric vehicles, if your dependent measure is whether or not they buy an electric vehicle, people don't buy vehicles very often. So, it's hard to get at the people when they're going to be buying the vehicle, you're, it's a very tricky area to actually do experimental causal work on a behavioral outcome because the behavior is infrequent. It's - it's fairly rare.
Adam Huggins 17:01
So, it's kind of like studying panda reproduction.
Mendel Skulski 17:07
[Laughs] Sure, yeah. It's like… panda reproduction. It doesn't happen very often. And for most people, it's a pretty big deal.
[Sound of an audience, hushing, a sudden pop, and rising applause]
Mendel Skulski 17:26
It's not always just about buying new cars. There are a lot of cars on the road already, and they're gonna be here for a while. So, that is to say that new purchases aren't necessarily the lowest hanging fruit. There are all sorts of sustainable choices that go beyond what kind of car people are going to buy next. Even little things like driving without a roof rack can have significant impacts on fuel consumption.
Adam Huggins 17:52
And of course, the best way to cut fuel consumption is just to not drive at all.
Reuven Sussman 17:58
Most people don't do the most impactful behaviors for environmental reasons. You know, environment is just one reason and probably not the biggest reason when it comes to transportation behaviors. People ride bikes to get in shape. People take the subway or the bus because it's cheaper. You know, there's a lot of folks that would be driving if they could afford it. So, pitching the right people on the right message for them is important.
Mendel Skulski 18:23
It may be obvious, but I think it bears repeating. Most people care about nature and worry about climate change, but there are other more important priorities in their life. For many, the term environmentally conscious is shorthand for expensive, ineffective or inconvenient, which can make it exactly the wrong way to pitch a new program.
Adam Huggins 18:47
Especially in the presence of Negatio rebelis, the dragon of reactance. There are lots of people out there who can't stand greenwashing, understandably. And we'll just go in the opposite direction out of spite.
Reuven Sussman 18:59
Messages should always work within the motivations that are already pre-existing. You should not be trying to change values, preach, change attitudes you should be looking at where people are and meeting their with your message. And like enhancement is a much better message than sacrifice.
Adam Huggins 19:17
Sacrifice is probably only a good message for those mules among us who are willing to take pains to help the planet… even excited to.
Mendel Skulski 19:27
There are those amongst us who enjoy a good whipping now and again.
Adam Huggins 19:31
[Choking] Jeez! [Laughs] Anyway, luckily, a lot of these choices like driving an electric car or riding a bike, eating as a vegetarian. They're not only sustainable, but they can often be pragmatic and healthy, economical. So incentive programs are already a step ahead by focusing on what you gain rather than on what you might have to give up. But how do you get people to even consider making that change in the first place?
[Chilled out synthesizer music]
Reuven Sussman 20:09
The daily decisions that people make are not made consciously. They're not calculating, you know, what is the best and cheapest way for me to get to work today. I mean, I know that most days it's driving, but maybe today, I should take the bus. They're usually just like, I'm tired, I need my coffee. I'm gonna mindlessly go to the place where I keep my keys, grab the keys, open the door to the car, like put on the heat, turn on the radio and just get in the car and go.
Christine Kormos 20:40
So these are like cognitive shortcuts that people make to decision making that that impact our day to day behavior, because of something called bounded rationality. So bounded rationality is this idea that people are, people are limited in their cognitive bandwidth, their time, their attention, all these things. So because they have these limitations, they end up resorting to these cognitive shortcuts.
Reuven Sussman 21:08
And so it becomes a habit and you don't have very many opportunities to change those habits we need to get people to do is to just consider making a change.
Mendel Skulski 21:17
And so you might ask “when are people open to change?”. When their life is changing anyways.
Reuven Sussman 21:23
Some people call it the Fresh Start hypothesis. I've heard it as that habit discontinuity theory. The idea is there these times when you're making decisions about, let's say, your travel mode choice for your travel route, and you're consciously thinking of them, they're not yet habits. That is the moment at which you can intervene and have the biggest effect on transportation mode decisions or any kind of life decisions. So, if you can get people let's say that they just started a new job, or they're just moving to a new neighborhood. That's when you send them a brochure with the route map options you give them a free bus pass, that's the moment where you get people to try using a different mode that might not use and maybe they start learning that it's reasonable and become make it a habit.
[Music fades out]
Mendel Skulski 22:16
Just so you know, we spoke to Reuven and Christine months before COVID. Back then, habit discontinuity was something like moving to a new neighborhood or getting a new job. But it seems clear now that so many of us have been given a fresh start that we never saw coming. And, as lots of folks have already pointed out, this is a chance to rewrite our habits to re-examine what's really useful in our life and see what's just a cognitive shortcut. If there's something good to come out of a global pandemic, it's an unprecedented opportunity to reinvent ourselves.
[Creaking and stretching sounds of leather]
Mendel Skulski 22:54
Is that, is that a leather jumpsuit?
Adam Huggins 22:58
Well, yeah, we're gonna reinvent ourselves, I was thinking Thunderdome-era Mad Max.
Mendel Skulski 23:03
[Amused] You do you
Adam Huggins 23:05
Do you like it?
Mendel Skulski 23:07
I'd say it's an improvement over that tinfoil hat. Um, Mad Max is basically a coal roller, though. And that's not exactly the kind of reinvention I was talking about.
Adam Huggins 23:19
I mean, we all have to make the best of a bad situation in our own unique ways and in our own unique outfits.
[Music]
Mendel Skulski 23:27
[Laughs] Fair enough.
Adam Huggins 23:28
You don't mind if I keep this on while we record, right?
Mendel Skulski 23:31
I'm all for personal exploration. There's also ways that institutions, governments and employers can help push things along. We don't just have to sit and wait for people's lives to change under them. It's possible to create habit discontinuities, and give people a safe way to dip their toes in a whole new way of life.
Reuven Sussman 23:52
So, I think that things like Bike to Work Day are one example of creating that opportunity. What it does is it hopefully, if you're doing it right, you know, gives people a more safe way to get to work, provides bikes when they don't have them, you know, closes down roads and stuff like that and gives people the opportunities to try it out for a few days or a week or whatever it is. That is one way to potentially change behavior in the long term way, if you disrupted habits artificially.
Adam Huggins 24:23
And if they're done right, these programs should be in everybody's best interest. A company could care about climate change, or they might just care about saving money. Regardless, they're offering something to their employees that also is beneficial to the climate.
Reuven Sussman 24:39
A lot of workplaces don't even think about the fact that their free parking is a perk. That companies that have free parking available are more likely to have people that drive to work. So, if you can offer people money to give up their parking spot, sometimes you're saving, you're alleviating a problem of parking, but you're definitely offering incentive for not driving. So you have this sort of sunk cost of, I'm paying for my parking spot, so I'm going to use it. Now you're flipping this on its head and you're saying, for not using your parking spot, you actually make money and therefore, you start getting used to having that and that breaks that habit and encourages new habits to form.
Mendel Skulski 25:19
There are lots of motivations that programs can appeal to, and they don't have to be the environmental guilt trip. In most cases, saving energy or reducing carbon is a pretty direct way to save money. But the issue remains that most people see the immediate cost of an energy upgrade and can't justify it based on the long term savings. Even if those savings eclipse the initial price. But, never fear, there is a solution. And it's called 'PAYS'. P-A-Y-S.
[Music]
Reuven Sussman 25:57
There is something called PAYS financing. It's Pay As You Save. And it's a really innovative way of encouraging people, especially uh low income rural communities where it's mostly being applied to upgrade their homes. And, without getting into the too many of the details, it has to do with, you as a homeowner not having to pay anything and the money that is paid for these renovations comes from the savings that you get from install, from having installed the upgrade. So, so there's really no risk for you upfront, which is a very important and useful strategy for encouraging upgrades.
Adam Huggins 26:36
To me, it sounds like this whole issue of perceived program inadequacy is really just an issue of having a scheme that not only reduces carbon emissions, but also is a material benefit to people's lives. This is the thinking behind the green New Deal. And whatever iteration it's being discussed as. It's just a matter of pitching it in a way that appeals to the folks that you're trying to reach. If you don't hit both of those, it either is truly inadequate or people won't care.
Mendel Skulski 27:06
And that brings us to the third and final member of Robert Gifford’s panoply of animal personas. We've got dragons and we've met the mules, but now introducing, bees.
Robert Gifford 27:20
Honeybees, not just bees. Because, just bees sounds like they're gonna sting you or something. Honeybees somehow sound softer and more positive. So, I always call them honeybees.
Mendel Skulski 27:29
Excuse me, honeybees.
Adam Huggins 27:31
I just want to note for the record here that native bees do not sting and also provide important pollination services. However, they do not make honey. So there is that.
Mendel Skulski 27:41
While we're referring to Roberts, honeybees, uh… who, who are they? How do they operate?
[Buzzing bee]
Robert Gifford 27:48
Honeybees pollinate our trees and flowers and give us food. They're not doing it for our benefit. They're doing it for their own selfish interests. And, the honeybees are those people who are doing the right thing, choosing the right actions doing the right behaviors, but not necessarily for climate change, often for their own self-interest, like saving money or for their health or something like that.
Adam Huggins 28:12
A good example of a honeybee would be a CEO who wants to take their company net zero because they think it'll make them more competitive. But honestly, anyone can be a honeybee, just as long as you've been enticed into doing something beneficial for the environment, but for immediately self-interested reasons, you know, like bringing your reusable bag to the grocery store in order to avoid that tiny disposable bag fee, which means there are latent honeybees everywhere. They just need to know where the flowers are. And this is really good news for the gardeners among us. Plus, I think that one of the big ways that these honeybees can be motivated, ties back to last week's dragon, social norms and comparison. It can be lonely on the bleeding edge. So, the more that these moves are seen as normal, the lower the social barrier.
Christine Kormos 29:05
If you go around saying, you know, was 6% of all new light duty vehicles sold in BC we're, you know, electric vehicles? Uh, okay, I don't know if that's gonna make everyone rush out and think that that's the that's the normative behavior, you're conveying that it's not the normative behavior. But what you can do in situations like that is you can emphasize things like positive trajectories and trends. Like there's been an, you know, an increase in such and such percent over the last year in the number of vehicles sold. Or you can say every year thousands of British Columbians are buying electric vehicles. These are things that are true, and that highlight the positive aspect of the social norm. So, this is a way that researchers can, researchers and practitioners, I should say, can make use of these powerful social norms in a socially responsible way.
[Music]
Mendel Skulski 30:01
So, when you're facing down the dragons of discredence, it's not about finding ways to make people care about climate change. It's about learning what they already care about. And, keying into that.
Adam Huggins 30:14
You can change your message. You might even want to change your messenger. But it will always help, to sweeten the deal
[soundscape, buzzing bee].
Adam Huggins 30:20
Just the right amount.
Adam Huggins 30:30
This has been chapter four of Scales of Change, a field guide to the dragons of climate inaction. We'll be back next week with chapter five, Force Majeure.
Mendel Skulski 30:45
Scales of Change is a production of Future Ecologies with support from the University of Victoria.
Adam Huggins 30:51
In this chapter, you heard Robert Gifford, Reuven Sussman, Christine Kormos, myself, Adam Huggins,
Mendel Skulski 30:58
And me, Mendel Skulski. Huge thanks to Simone Miller, Suzanne Ahearne, Anne Maclaurin, and Eric Schwass. Besides discovering the dragons of inaction, Robert Gifford is the author of the textbook, Environmental Psychology, Principles and Practice.
Adam Huggins 31:15
Reuven Sussman is the director of the Behavior and Human Dimensions program at the American Council for an energy efficient economy. And he organizes an annual conference on behavior, energy and climate change.
Mendel Skulski 31:27
And, Christine Kormos is a Mitacs Canadian Science Policy Fellow with the government of British Columbia. Our theme song and composition for this chapter is by Loam Zoku. Other music in this episode was contributed by Lloyd Richards, Soda Lite, Soft and Furious, Radioactive Bishop, Circus Homunculus, Damon Boucher and Sunfish Moon Light.
Mendel Skulski 31:47
You can tweet at us or follow us on Facebook and Instagram at Future Ecologies.
Adam Huggins 31:52
To learn more about each one of the dragons of inaction, including silly things like the Latin names we gave them, go to futureecologies.net/dragons.
Mendel Skulski 32:01
If you want to support the work that we do, join our community at patreon.com/futureecologies
Adam Huggins 32:07
Alright, that's it. See you next week.
Mendel Skulski 32:10
Bye for now.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai and edited by Neetash Mraj