Deer illustration by Jenny Ritter
Summary
Guest producers Sadie Couture and Russell Gendron explore the concept of invasive species through a look at a small island community, a species doing some serious damage to the ecosystem, and the complex issues at play when a plant or animal moves into a new territory.
Sadie and Russell talk to current and former residents of Mayne Island, Indigenous elders, and conservation professionals to think through what it means to call something an “invasive species,” how to manage our ever-changing relationships to plants and animals, and how we might prepare for the certainty of change in the future.
This episode was originally a short piece on the Mayne Island Sound Map, entitled “The Joy of Cooking Fenison.”
The Feed the People Workshop At the Galiano Conservancy
Show Notes
This episode features J'SINTEN John Elliott, Paula Bucholtz, Peter Arcese, Rob Underhill, Nick Reo, Steven Sylvester, and Karen Charlie.
Music in this episode was provided by D. Nettles, J'SINTEN John Elliott, Chad Crouch, The Joy Drops, Heftone Banjo Orchestra, You’re Me, Hotspring, Aner Andros, Campbell Bay after dark, Yu Su, Barren House (formerly known as Meteoric Twin), and Sunfish Moon Light.
This episode was produced by Sadie Couture and Russell Gendron, and edited & mixed by Mendel Skulski with help from Adam Huggins.
Special thanks to Richard Charlie, Ramsey Sylvester, Deblekha Guin, Hannah Tollefson, Adrian Levine, the Galiano Conservancy, the Feed the People organizers and participants, and the whole community of Mayne Island.
For more on Mayne Island deer, click here.
For more on the Galiano Conservancy and the Feed the People workshop, click here.
Citations
Arcese, P. & Martin, T. (2020). Deer and biodiversity. In Klinkenberg, Brian. (Editor), Biodiversity of British Columbia, Lab for Advanced Spatial Analysis, Department of Geography, University of British Columbia, Vancouver.
Arcese, P., Schuster, R., Campbell, L., Barber, A., & Martin, T. G. (2014). Deer density and plant palatability predict shrub cover, richness, diversity and aboriginal food value in a north american archipelago. Diversity & Distributions, 20(11/12), 1368-1378.
Egan-Elliot, R. (2019) Why Mayne Islanders want to bring back hunting ban. Times Colonist
Elliot, M. (1984). Mayne island and the outer gulf islands, a history. Gulf Islands Press.
Iannone, C. T. (2019). Impacts of invasive species to indigenous communities and cultural practices. Invasive species council of BC.
Kimmerer, R. W. (2020). Braiding sweetgrass: Indigenous wisdom, scientific knowledge, and the teachings of plants. Milkweed Edition.
Lee, T. V. (2010). ‘Glistening patches of gold’: The environmental history of Scotch Broom (Cytisus scoparius) on Southern Vancouver Island, 1848-1950. BC Studies (166), 39-54.
Martin, T. G., Arcese, P., & Scheerder, N. (2011). Browsing down our natural heritage: Deer impacts on vegetation structure and songbird populations across an island archipelago. Biological Conservation, 144(1), 459-469.
Reo, N.J. and L.A. Ogden (2018) From invasive species to migrating nations: broad perspectives of invasive species plants in Anishnaabe aki. Sustainability Science: 1-10.
Reo, N.J., K.P. Whyte, D. Ranco, J. Brandt, B. Elliott, E.D. Blackmer (2017) Invasive species, Indigenous stewards and vulnerability discourse. American Indian Quarterly. 41(3): 201-223.
Reo, N. J. and K. P. Whyte. (2012) Morality and hunting as elements of traditional ecological knowledge. Human Ecology 40(1).
Rodewald, A. D., & Arcese, P. (2016). Direct and indirect interactions between landscape structure and invasive or overabundant species. Current Landscape Ecology Reports, 1(1), 30-39.
Tsing, A. L. (2015). The mushroom at the end of the world: On the possibility of life in capitalist ruins. Princeton University Press.
Underhill, R. (2013). Assessing the effects of deer browse on Mayne Island’s ecosystems. Mayne Island Conservancy Society.
Vermes, J. (2018, April 22). ‘Every plant and animal is useful to us’: Indigenous professor re-thinking how we deal with invasive species. CBC.
This episode includes audio recorded by Alcove Audio, worthahep88, and InspectorJ, protected by Creative Commons attribution licenses, and accessed through the Freesound Project.
You can subscribe to and download Future Ecologies wherever you find podcasts - please share, rate, and review us. We’re also on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and iNaturalist.
If you like what we do, and you want to help keep it ad-free, please consider supporting us on Patreon. Pay-what-you-can (as little as $1/month) to get access to bonus monthly mini-episodes, stickers, patches, a community Discord chat server, and more. This season, we’re taking a tour of some of our Seaweed Sojourners, with the help of Josie Iselin.
Future Ecologies is recorded and produced on the unceded, shared, and asserted territories of the WSÁNEĆ, Penelakut, Hwlitsum, and Lelum Sar Augh Ta Naogh, and other Hul'qumi'num speaking peoples, otherwise known as Galiano Island, British columbia, as well as the unceded, shared, and asserted territories of the Musqueam (xwməθkwəy̓əm) Squamish (Skwxwú7mesh), and Tsleil- Waututh (Səl̓ílwətaʔ/Selilwitulh) Nations - otherwise known as Vancouver, British Columbia.
Transcription
Introduction Voiceover 00:02
You're listening to season three of Future Ecologies [echoes.]
[Fire crackling]
Sadie Couture 00:05
And this is the sound of a plant being burned. It's a plant that everyone loves to hate. One of the most hardscrabble, glistening gold resilient, domineering plants here on the west coast. It's scotch broom, and I'm sure you folks have heard about it.
[Crackling subsides]
[Halting rhythm enters, followed by pensive guitar and synth]
Mendel Skulski 00:27
Oh, we've definitely heard of it. And before we get any further, hey future ecologies listeners, we've got a story for you today coming from a couple of guest producers. I'm excited to introduce you to my neighbors, Sadie.
Sadie Couture 00:41
Hi.
Mendel Skulski 00:42
And Russell.
Russell Gendron 00:43
Hello.
Adam Huggins 00:44
I also just want to note that you guys are part time my neighbors on Mayne Island, just across active pass.
Russell Gendron 00:52
That's true. We live across the street from each other, so to speak.
Adam Huggins 00:56
It's a busy street full of ferry traffic.
Mendel Skulski 00:58
So, Adam, I think you're acquainted with broom, right?
Adam Huggins 01:03
Yeah, I mean, only insofar as I spent a good portion of my summer hanging off of ropes trying to remove it from cliff faces. So yeah, we're acquainted. [chuckles all around]
Sadie Couture 01:14
Yeah. It's a plant that's iconic, infamous, and really complicated. I remember when I was a little girl, I loved the bright yellow color of the flowers. But whenever I would mention it to my grandmother, she would respond with a deluge of words unfit for the ears of small children. It's an introduced species here in BC, and I've heard so many different things about it over the years. What about you, Russell?
[Enter bagpipes]
Russell Gendron 01:40
Well, I was always told that broom came here because a Scottish settler was homesick, and his wife mailed him a few seeds to plant outside his cottage in the 1800s.
[Bagpipes fade]
Mendel Skulski 01:48
So Sadie, why does scotch broom have such a bad reputation?
Sadie Couture 01:53
Scotch broom thickets, overtake and displace native plant species, especially in the beloved Gary oak ecosystems. They limit the movement abilities of animals, disrupt rangeland, and browsing activities. They can harm tree plantations and reforestation efforts, and often contribute to wildfire fuel loads.
[Light fire crackles]
Sadie Couture 02:15
And broom is just one example of an invasive species that is prominent in these territories. In this region, and in all regions around the world. People are grappling with the consequences of introduced species, changes to their ecosystems, and how to respond.
Mendel Skulski 02:31
Because when we think about a plant or an animal as invasive, it turns every ecosystem into a combat zone and makes any response an act of war.
[Future Ecologies theme starts]
But this episode isn't just about scotch broom. Sadie and Russell are here to tell us the story of a small island community, an animal run amok and a different way to think and talk about our interspecies predicaments.
Adam Huggins 02:49
Sounds like an episode of Future Ecologies. [Adam and Mendel laugh]
Adam Huggins 03:01
A good one too, I'd tune in.
Introduction Voiceover 03:05
Broadcasting from the unceded, shared, and asserted territories of the W̱SÁNEĆ, Penelakut, Hwlitsum, Lelum Sar Augh Ta Naogh, and other Hul'qumi'num speaking peoples – This is Future Ecologies.
J'SINTEN John Elliott 03:46
Well, when the creator made these islands, he made them from our people, they were human at one time. And he made them from our people. And the through them from centers where we live with the villages over there in the internet. And he threw them in there and landed in different parts of the streets. He became those islands.
J'SINTEN John Elliott 04:14
And when he was done his work and then he checked on all the islands he went to everyone I knew you arrive to this island it had no water here. Very good water here. So he went to the end of the point there. And the point what they call Helen pointed any stone in there and face to the mountains far away with this no one I need to the water from there to here. So this island has good order.
Russell Gendron 04:44
So again, my name is Russell, and I'm going to introduce you to Mayne Island. What you just heard was SENĆOŦEN language expert, J'SINTEN, who also goes by Dr. John Elliott. Speaking to a crowd of festival goers on Mayne Island. John is a respected elder of the Tsartlip First Nation, one of the several indigenous groups closely linked to the Gulf Island region.
Adam Huggins 05:06
Attentive listeners of our Scales of Change series will note that Mayne Island is one of the ṮEṮÁĆES
or the relatives of the deep in W̱SÁNEĆ culture.
Russell Gendron 05:22
He and his people have stewarded these islands since time immemorial. And he was kind enough to educate me on a place that has been so central to my life, as my families are settlers there. In the 60s, my grandparents bought a piece of land on Mayne and built a little cabin. Since then, a large part of my immediate and extended family has called Mayne home at one time or another. And I've been going there since I was born. And we start our story here because of its unique population of deer. But first, if you don't know it, main island is a part of what is known as the southern Gulf islands, located off the coast of British Columbia.
Media Clip 05:52
Life was good for these Gulf Island pioneers. Their challenge came from the land, and that yield of abundant crops for those who worked it.
Russell Gendron 06:15
It was settled by European people in the 1850s and developed around agriculture and fishing, then logging and now tourism. Most of the islands is rural, and kind of suburban-y in parts. It's known for its hot summers and mild winters, beautiful beaches, and the iconic arbutus tree. Cross the Gulf islands and on Mayne, especially, deer are just kind of everywhere, on the beaches and in the forest, like you might imagine. But they're also all over the roads and at times considered pests entering into people's yards, orchards and gardens, looking for food, and they like to eat everything. But why is Mayne special in this way you ask? That's because two species of deer live there: black tail and fallow. Black tail are indigenous, and fallow are invasive or introduced. Here's my granny Joanna talking about the two different types of deer.
Granny Joanna 07:17
Our deer are black tail. They're not a menace. They can be annoying at times, but they're quite lovely deer and we love to see them. We just like to put a fence around them so that they don't eat all our stuff. The fallow deer are very destructive, because they strip the bark off trees they eat all the stuff that our own indigenous deer don't eat.
Russell Gendron 07:49
Perhaps you can tell from that clip, but just to be clear, fallow deer, the introduced species, don't rank very high in my Granny's books, the way she refers to "our deer this" and "our deer that" is actually kind of a running joke in our family. The joke is that we know that one type of deer is good and the other type is pure evil according to her, but we can't for the life of us tell which one is which. She's gonna kill me if she ever hears this. Here's my uncle trying to figure it out. Which deer is which
Granny Joanna 08:23
They have a different shaped neck, they walk differently they're, they're, um,
Granny Joanna 08:30
they pretty well walk with their heads straight up, you know like-like the neck go straight up. And they can go from anywhere from white to black. And anything in between. Sometimes they've got to have spots on them.
Russell's Uncle 08:44
Like even not juvenile ones?
Granny Joanna 08:47
No, not juvenile. No, full grown. And their rack is like an elk. It's not-
Russell's Uncle 08:53
Like flat, as opposed to-
Granny Joanna 08:55
Yeah, yeah.
Russell's Uncle 08:55
Okay.
Granny Joanna 08:56
If they have a rack, y'know.
Russell's Uncle 08:57
Well, this guy doesn't have a rack so you know that this guy is not a fallow deer.
Granny Joanna 09:00
That is not a fallow deer.
Russell's Uncle 09:02
Because of the shape of his head. Okay.
Granny Joanna 09:04
Yeah. And even in just the way he walks around and does-
Russell's Uncle 09:10
So he’s not wanted, or likable. The thing is, I don't just know.
Granny Joanna 09:12
Well I wish a fallow deer would come [overlapping conversation]
Russell's Uncle 09:14
So do I! [conversation fades]
Russell Gendron 09:20
She's not alone in her sentiment. Across the island, fallow deer are inferior to black tailed deer. And she, like all the other full time residents on Mayne, can tell the difference.
Russell Gendron 09:31
I got, uh, I got like a survey pop question for you if you're open to it.
Mayne Island Resident 1 09:37
Yeah, the answer is 42.
Russell Gendron 09:40
Do you have an opinion on fallow deer versus indigenous deer?
Mayne Island Resident 1 09:45
Yes, I do. Let's get rid of the fallow deer.
Russell Gendron 09:48
Can you tell the difference?
Mayne Island Resident 1 09:50
Absolutely.
Russell Gendron 09:50
How d'you tell?
Mayne Island Resident 1 09:52
They don't have a black tail.
Mayne Island Resident 2 09:55
They're a species that is not native to our region and they eat everything.
Mayne Island Resident 3 10:03
They travel in massive packs, and they're… I don't know, it just seems that people are just looking at them as though they're cute, but they're actually eating monsters.
Mayne Island Resident 2 10:14
You know they poke their whole heads through my fence and eat the apple tree that's along the side when you say that a plant is deer resistant that doesn't necessarily mean it's resistant to fallow deer.
Mayne Island Resident 3 10:28
Our local songbirds are diminishing. This allow is being trampled I I just think that it's an environmental disaster that was never rectified. And now it's kind of out of control.
Mayne Island Resident 4 10:34
I find them very dangerous. They're not deer, they're goats.
Mayne Island Resident 2 10:46
Both species of deer on-on the island are problematic. We haven't had hunting on Maine since the 60s.
Sadie Couture 10:57
So what's going on? Fallow deer, Dama dama, are an invasive species to Mayne Island, BC. They can be hard to differentiate from the black tailed deer, especially because both species can actually have black tails.
Sadie Couture 11:13
In contrast to blacktail deer, fallow deer can be many different colors. They keep their spots into adulthood. They have longer noses, and importantly, they're more skittish. They're very populous to the island. They have a big impact on the ecosystem, and they bother local residents in many ways. They trample and eat many plants, they jump out in front of cars, and decimate unfenced gardens. They have no natural predators and reproduce quickly. It's a big issue on the island and is of concern to the Mayne island Conservancy Society, the Mayne Island Ratepayers Association and the community has even formed the Mayne Island fallow deer committee to address the issue. The fallow deer committee has four subcommittees, and maintains an informational website which functions, quote, "for the purpose of informing the community about the impact of the fallow deer on Mayne Island's ecosystems and to promote its restoration through responsible management of fallow deer." Unquote.
Mendel Skulski 12:32
Let's back up. How did all this happen? How did the deer density on Mayne Island get so out of control?
Sadie Couture 12:40
A lot of people start the story in the mid 80s, when a woman named Paula moved to Mayne Island from Germany.
Paula Bucholtz 12:48
My name is Paula Bucholtz. I have lived in Canada since 1900-86. And I started the deer farm on main island in 1900-87.
Sadie Couture 13:03
Paula farmed fallow deer on main island for about 20 years. Paula was coming from a context where deer farms are common. And she saw some interesting opportunities and benefits that come along with the practice.
Paula Bucholtz 13:10
People have used deer, and particularly fallow deer, for thousands of years in Europe. They originate from Mesopotamia, and have been held and are held in Europe in all the Royal parks from Spain to England to Hungary. The advantage, the meat of fallow deer is very mild in flavor and not tough at all. Because they are smaller deer and have a shorter muscle fiber, and they are easier to tame.
Sadie Couture 13:58
So she decided, without any prior experience, to start a deer farm all by herself.
Paula Bucholtz 14:04
First I had to learn it. I traveled all over the US and visited existing farms, went to auctions, and purchased deer. And then I had to get them through quarantine, to be tested for TB, brucellosis, anaplasmosis and Blue Tongue.
Sadie Couture 14:36
She set up her farm in 1987, learned deer farming practices, and began to launch her line of products. Everything from the meat itself to leather garments, venison paté, antler cutlery, and deer hide sofas.
Paula Bucholtz 14:49
Running a farm with 700 deer and that was quite an adventure I liked except the hard work sometimes was too much for my back, when I sustained that injury, which was so severe that I could hardly lift a teacup, so it was not easy.
Sadie Couture 15:13
And there was the issue of fencing.
Paula Bucholtz 15:15
You have to have the fences, eight feet high, otherwise they jump over it. And the gauge of the fence has to be right so that it doesn't come down when they fall storms come on. When the first fall storm came and fell on these fences with a big gauge, they went straight down to the ground, if a tree fell on them, they just went right down like that and the first bucks got out. I learned that the hard way. I got a lot back in but not all.
Sadie Couture 16:00
Sometime shortly after Paula's farm became operational, her fences did not hold up in a storm, and several deer escaped her farm. Since then, the descendants of her deer have spread across Mayne, have reproduced quickly, and Mayne Island now has one of the highest deer densities in the region. In 2013, the Mayne island Conservancy estimated it at about 0.5 to two deer per hectare. While I, and possibly you, don't really know what that means, the report clearly says, quote, "this abundance of deer is considered too high if the goal is to maintain historic plant and animal diversity within the ecosystems of Mayne Island," unquote.
Sadie Couture 16:36
To learn more about this. I contacted Dr. Peter Arcese, a professor in the Department of forest and conservation Sciences at the University of British Columbia, and the forest renewal chair in conservation biology.
Peter Arcese 17:03
Let me know how I can help.
Sadie Couture 17:05
He has studied the impacts of deer density in the San Juan and Gulf Islands. We talked over zoom, Peter at his home on a small island near Mayne, and me at my home in Vancouver. I asked him about how deer are impacting the ecosystems on Mayne. He explained to me that a hyper abundance of deer impact an ecosystem in multiple ways, which he framed as direct and indirect. For Peter, the direct effects of overpopulation on an island like Mayne, is that deer eat specific plants that are palatable to them, such as Saskatoon berries,
Peter Arcese 17:41
What does that do? It removes those plants from the landscape and unpalatable plants that therefore have no competition and increase in abundance. The water, the light, the nutrients go to the plants, which are not being eaten. They're not being eaten because they are things like broom, an introduced plant which is not very nutritious and digestible. So the direct effect of deer is to remove plant material. And by doing that they affect the competitive regime of the remainder plants.
Sadie Couture 18:16
And then there's the indirect effects. As Peter mentioned, deer in hyper abundant densities will eat certain plants to the point of endangerment or extinction. And then the plants that aren't eaten become more abundant and thrive. Another indirect effect is from the hooves of the deer. As deer walk around, their small sharp hooves puncture the earth, and some plants really like that, especially introduced plants, for example, broom. In essence, by removing competition and providing an ideal habitat for certain plants, deer accentuate the rate that some plants, especially introduced or invasive ones, succeed. This changes the dynamics of the ecosystem as a whole, which in turn has consequences for other species, such as pollinators, and bird communities.
Peter Arcese 19:09
If you know what a Saskatoon looks like in spring, it's covered in white flowers in May. So Saskatoon support pollinators. If you don't have rose, and Saskatoon and other flowering plants, pollinators have less to eat. One of the things we see is that as shrubs disappear, pollinators disappear. There's lots of things that rely on those saskatoons, pollinators but the birds that feed on them later, the birds that nest in them or find cover from them. Things like that.
Sadie Couture 19:42
The more deer there are, the more palatable plants are eaten. This makes more opportunities for introduced and invasive plants to outcompete, spread and alter the landscape even further. In the Gulf islands, and on Mayne, Peter says that this often means an overall reduced amount of shrub cover. And the little amount that there is, is different than it would look with lower deer densities,
Peter Arcese 20:06
which has monumental effects on bird communities, pollinators and other kinds of things. That process has been dubbed trophic downgrading.
Sadie Couture 20:17
This is something that's been talked about on Future Ecologies already trophic downgrading or trophic cascades are situations when one part or relationship of an ecosystem is disrupted, and it has powerful and complicated effects on other aspects of that ecosystem. It's the trophic downgrading that Peter is most worried about, as well as the direct effects that deer have on endangered plants. It's clear that the deer density on Mayne is out of control. But in contrast to the way that many islanders frame the problem, Peter doesn't see these effects as directly a result of Paula's deer escaping one stormy night. From Peter's perspective, both fallow deer and black tailed deer have the capacity to cause significant harm to the ecosystem if they are allowed to reach high densities, as has happened on Mayne.
Peter Arcese 21:10
Black tailed deer can do exactly what fallow deer, they have all of the same trophic downgrading and biotic homogenization, they can drive extinct many species of plants and I could bend your ear forever telling you about the islands.
Russell Gendron 21:26
So this is really interesting, because despite the general sentiment toward fallow deer on the island, the impact residents are feeling isn't actually to do with just the fallow deer. Single species scapegoating is a common occurrence when dealing with an ecological imbalance. And one we'll talk more about later in this episode.
Sadie Couture 21:46
For Peter, either species of deer at hyper abundant densities could cause the harm that we've seen on main island. And he sees the current density levels as a result of aspects of the environmental movement in the 60s and 70s, decades before Paula's deer escaped from her farm.
Peter Arcese 22:04
We know that in 1972, we outlawed deer hunting in the flat top islands off Nanaimo. And the reason we did was because many in my age group in 1972, had just experienced the banning of whaling in 1968, because we knew hunting was one of the worst things that was impacting species at that point. And so a lot of us in a somewhat naive sense banned hunting thinking it would be good for deer. We just kind of forgot about all the rest.
Sadie Couture 22:32
With the ban on hunting on Mayne and in other areas in 1972. Peter thinks the situation would be the same, no matter the species. Mayne may be further along in the process, but many islands in the area will face the same challenges in the future. If the situation remains unchanged. Peter traces the problem back much further than 1972 as well. He sees the deer density on Maine as directly connected to the changes that European settlers enacted on this land. And on the indigenous people who lived here.
Peter Arcese 23:04
One of the first things to remember than is that the ecosystems we have have been changing rapidly. They've been affected by all kinds of things. And we've had, you know, potentially 12,000 years of indigenous people who've used the landscape and they've always used it to provide what they needed to live. To understand the terrestrial environment in the Gulf islands, we absolutely must remember that the environment we see still has the history of indigenous management in it. But we also don't use the landscape in ways that were used historically, because we have colonized the area with many more humans than were here historically. And so we alter the habitat. So the landscape is going to change. One of the most obvious ones for many of us in the Gulf islands is to imagine what the landscape would have looked like when indigenous groups were managing it for food production, because we know that there would have been, as an example, frequent fires.
Peter Arcese 24:10
The regular application of low intensity fires in the Gulf Island, we know lead to a habitat which was much more open than the one we have now. And that would have been much more of what biologists call a Savanna landscape, a landscape which is dominated by grassland, meadow, shrubs, and large trees spaced and that would have been kind of maintained. [fades]
Sadie Couture 24:22
As Peter explained to me, European colonization of these lands drastically altered the way in which indigenous peoples had been managing their territories since time immemorial. Dealing with colonial rule dispossession, from their lands and waters, disease and residential schools prevented indigenous peoples from stewarding their lands and waters as they had been. In addition, the European settlers had different expectations and visions for the landscape and the ecosystem. For example, removing predators that would have historically kept deer populations in check.
Peter Arcese 25:08
So what do we have now? Now we have a situation where we've converted a lot of habitat into things for human use. And we've removed the predators from the landscape. And we're hoping to conserve those indigenous landscapes, those ones that are meadows, shrubby areas, and big old trees. We're hoping to conserve those by putting parks aside where we don't burn, we don't hunt, and we have no predators. Unfortunately, that's a fool's game. And we will never conserve most of the species that we are now concerned about in those small postage stamp reserves. Because the reason they were there in the first place, was due to the extensive land managing exercises of indigenous people in maintaining a living for themselves. So if you take away the processes that were maintaining the landscape and replace them with other processes, things are going to change. And that's what's happened.
Sadie Couture 26:12
From hearing Peter talk, it made me realize just how many changes our ecosystems have been through, and are likely going to go through in the future as well. There's no natural state, and that if we have preferences about the type of ecosystems we want to be a part of, then we need to do a better job of actively envisioning, articulating, and taking steps towards making those ecosystems a reality.
Russell Gendron 26:37
To give us a sense, what this looks like on an everyday basis, we talked to Rob Underhill. Rob is a plant biologist who has worked at the Mayne Island Conservancy for the last 10 years. And Fun fact, Rob's grandma taught my grandma how to swim when she was a little girl growing up on Pender Island.
Rob Underhill 26:57
Now my name is Rob Underhill. And I've been living on Mayne for about eight years now.
Rob Underhill 27:04
Working for the Conservancy for 10.
Russell Gendron 27:06
I asked Rob, what he thought should be done about the deer on Mayne,
Rob Underhill 27:10
What is quite obvious is to reduce the deer populations by some mechanism. And in particular, try to reduce the fallow deer which are a non-native species to ideally zero. We can't go back in time and observe how many deer were here in the past. We knew there was a lot less deer based on what we see happening in the ecosystem. Now, we had a wildlife biologist from UBC,
Russell Gendron 27:37
Mr. Peter Arcese,
Rob Underhill 27:39
come here as a guest speaker once and he's been working more broadly on the deer overpopulation issue. He suggested that for Mayne Island, approximately 200 black tailed deer might be something that would be considered a natural population.
Russell Gendron 27:57
Over email, Rob wrote to me about what the current estimates of the deer population on Mayne are. He said, although there's no exact number, pellet count studies done in 2013 suggests that Maine has a deer population anywhere from 1000 to 4200. He acknowledged that this is a wide range and based on some key assumptions, but this is his best informed guess.
Sadie Couture 28:21
So from a historic population of about 200 deer, it's now probably at least five times that.
Russell Gendron 28:27
At least, yeah. It could be as high as 20 times. Basically, everyone agrees that the number of deer is way too high, but there's no consensus about what to do about it. Rob and Peter both cite the long running hunting ban as a contributing factor to Mayne's deer problem. The province officially reopened hunting in 2018 albeit with some conditions attached, but it still doesn't sit well with everyone. Some Islanders are concerned about public safety. Most land on Mayne is privately held, and there are almost always neighbors or roads nearby. Also to hunt legally, you need explicit permission from the landowner. Others feel strongly that hunting should only be allowed for the fallow deer and not the black tail, even though both species contribute to trophic downgrading. Finally, there are some folks who feel that killing any deer no matter what species is plain wrong. Instead, they advocate for contraceptive vaccines, more fences, relocation programs, or simply tolerance. The disagreement has played out in newspapers, public Facebook groups, and townhall meetings. But no matter what side those folks take, it's clear that many people care, and they all want Mayne to see a healthier future. Rob and Peter both told us the first step for any community is to discuss their goals for their ecosystems. And by doing so, the best solutions will flow from those goals. So I asked Rob what he envisions as a healthy ecosystem on Mayne island.
Rob Underhill 30:06
So for me on Mayne island, what I would like to see as a healthy ecosystem is one where all the different types of ecosystems on Mayne island ranging from wetlands to Gary oak, dry forests are represented in large enough areas to support the different plants and animals that live in those different ecosystem types. And that the processes that naturally occur within those ecosystems, so patterns of change over time, that the different species that live there rely on are taking place. And here's Peter once again, on how to move forward.
Peter Arcese 30:47
Yeah, the options, of course come out of some kind of community discussion, not just about what's available to them for options, but that what they want their environment to look like. So it will depend on what the community wants, and the options then come out of community decisions. Because the truth is, we live in a democracy, we share our landscapes, and we need to have a shared purpose for how we manage our lands.
Russell Gendron 31:10
It seemed to us that the community on Mayne is stuck on how to move forward. The overpopulation of deer is felt by everyone on some level, and the fallow deer end up taking the blame. But when solutions get suggested, there's a lot of pushback,
Sadie Couture 31:26
and there just isn't the political will or enough resources allocated to make this issue a priority.
Russell Gendron 31:32
We seem to have stalled.
Sadie Couture 31:34
Yeah, it's tough. And there's no going back to the way things were, it feels like instead, we need some new ideas and ways of thinking about problems like these, especially when there's a new species involved in shifting ecological dynamics. So I called up Nick Reo.
Nick Reo 31:52
My name is Nick Reo. I'm Anishinaabe from the Sioux Sainte Marie tribe of Chippewa Indians, my home community and tribe. It's pretty spread out geographically across what is now Northern Michigan. But we're also a cross boundary community in the sense that the US Canada Border crossed us. And I'm a professor of indigenous Environmental Studies at Dartmouth College in New Hampshire.
Sadie Couture 32:17
Nick has been involved in the management of invasive species for around 20 years, first as a volunteer, and then professionally. Originally, he viewed invasive species as only something to remove.
Nick Reo 32:31
I basically recognize them as a threat to the plants and animals that my community has 1000s of years of relationships invested, just kind of straight up threatened by colonizers, you know, I kind of saw it in those terms. And so, you know, worked pretty concertedly to remove them or to be involved in that way.
Sadie Couture 32:52
However, Nick's perspective started to shift, as he continued to discuss these issues with elders, community members and other academics.
Nick Reo 33:01
I'd had a series of conversations with a close friend of mine and a collaborator named Laura Ogden, and she's an anthropologist, and works really on sort of trying to understand the dense web of relationships that humans and-and more than human have together. And so she posed a really good question. Okay, so how did these new plants and animals fit in to, like your people's network of relations? Like if you regard plants and animals as kin, when a new plant or animal moves in? What are they?
Sadie Couture 33:32
This was an important moment for Nick, and his thinking about how we relate to plants and animals that are new to an area.
Nick Reo 33:36
So that's what I'm really interested in now is having conversations with people and trying to think together more broadly and openly about what does it mean to have a relationship with an introduced plant or animal, because the work that I was doing prior, it wasn't very relational. You know, it was, it was, it was just removal. You know, it was like I was diff-, it was like, it was defense.
Sadie Couture 34:02
Now, Nick approaches invasive or introduced species with a different mindset.
Nick Reo 34:08
It doesn't mean that now I just fully embrace like, any and all, plant and animal introductions, I'm just a little more introspective about it. If nothing else, it's encouraged me to start with not blaming plants and animals, you know, like, it's not their fault that they were introduced. Maybe they migrated on their own, but more-more often, they were moved by people. It's not their fault. All beings have roles on earth, and they all have gifts. And so like, I'm interested in knowing what their roles and what their gifts are in general, and then you know what that might mean. In this, if they're in a new place, like what? How does that translate to that new place? To me, that's an important starting place.
Sadie Couture 34:50
Nick talked about non-human beings is being organized into plant and animal nations, a concept which informs how he reacts when thinking about an introduced species.
Nick Reo 35:00
Growing up, I didn't really hear that framing and, but I like it, it sort of fits. And the reason that it fits is that our teachings and our ways of understanding this kind of community of plants, animals, humans, and other beings is that they have their own knowledge system. Their own ways of understanding their role on Earth. They have their own teachings, their own skill sets, their own gifts, their own stories for like, for instance, deer, I've been told that they have, they have ceremonies. Now, not only are they social animals, which most people would recognize, but they have like society. That's the kind of thing that that I want to be able to recognize among those relatives. It's, it's something that I've been taught exists. And that kind of works for me. The idea of nations also fits with the idea that plants and animals have ways of making decisions as groups that they should have rights to be asked and approached and engaged, as opposed to just humans doing what they will without negotiating that with, with another group.
Sadie Couture 36:04
Thinking of plants and animals on these terms, informs how Nick reacts when a new nation moves into an area, and how he thinks we can approach these tricky situations.
Nick Reo 36:15
I think a lot about the fact that wherever a plant or animal comes from, it's got a really special role. There's, you know, it's got different gifts that it offers to people in the form of food or medicine or other things. As teachers, we learn a lot from plants and animals.
Sadie Couture 36:30
Nick talked about the North American Beaver, known where he comes from as an engineer, and for having a big impact on biodiversity. These beavers are invasive in Tierra del Fuego. And Nick has some ideas about creating knowledge exchanges between communities that have had traditional relationships to an animal nation, and those who are struggling with that relationship.
Nick Reo 36:51
If people in Tierra del Fuego were to maybe partner up with and learn from trappers in Quebec, or Michigan, or Ontario, or what have you, I think that that that could at least they would be engaging with those animals in a way that's other than combative.
Sadie Couture 37:10
Asking the question of what gifts this plant or animal has, and how it has traditionally been a part of its home ecosystem, are important ways to think in an open way about newcomer plant and animal nations.
Sadie Couture 37:24
Once we ask these questions, then we can have a better idea about how to build a relationship with a certain plant or animal. And Nick thinks these relationships are necessary to responsible interaction with our changing ecosystems.
Nick Reo 37:38
Basically, on a practical level, one thing it involves is like being open to talking to plants and animals. If you're out fishing or whatnot, like talking to fish, you know, talking to the beings that live in the waterway is, it's-it shouldn't be weird. It shows those beings a certain level of respect and an interest and being in a relationship. I mean, especially if part of your relationship with those plants is they offer you something that you harvest them for something. You're going to take the life of another being, that's a very sacred moment. And so there should be some reverence there. But I am also I think, in favor of more every day, conversational interactions with plants and animals.
Sadie Couture 38:21
For Nick, having relationships with the plants and animals around us is the first step to interacting with and stewarding our ecosystems. This will be the basis of any strategy designed to respond to newcomer species.
Nick Reo 38:34
Every situation is different, right? And so one thing to avoid is to just treat everything the same. It's an invasive species, let's get after it. Let's get it out of here. And it's not one size fits all, every every situation is different ecologically, economically, socially, that there's always different circumstances. And so you need to take a nuanced approach. And I would suggest thinking openly and broadly about the suite of options.
Sadie Couture 39:00
Sometimes, if a species is very new, Nick thinks a traditional eradication approach makes sense.
Nick Reo 39:07
Now, if it's a new-new newcomer, there's they're just kind of showing up, then, I think there's a lot of wisdom and advice that you get from basic ecology and from basic sort of natural resource management, which is if you can identify these newcomers really early and actually try to eliminate them early on, you know, I mean, maybe with respect, you know, instead of "Oh, it's a damn weed," and then burning it with fervor. But with respect.
Sadie Couture 39:36
Other times, however, as with the fallow deer on main island, the time for this type of early management has passed. And these are the situations where Nick thinks that an open mind in combination with knowledge about, and respect for these newcomers, can help us in forming a healthier relationship with them.
Nick Reo 39:47
For the more well established situations, I think, taking some time to think about, "Like, well, what role could this plant or animal play here, if any? What responsibilities could this plant or animal enact towards us?" They may or may not be here to stay, but at least while they're here, the-they are a part of the community. And so what's their role in the community? And then what responsibilities, if anything, do we have towards them as members of that community? And you know, maybe at the end of the day, the only responsibility that people think they have is to get rid of them, because their responsibility is really to sort of protect those longer term inhabitants or the native species. And that's fine. But I just to just to think, openly, that there may be possibilities for other trajectories as well or other roles.
Sadie Couture 40:41
Whatever the ultimate strategy may be, for Nick, it needs to start with the knowledge that each plant and animal has a role, has a gift, and isn't to blame for the impact they may be having on our ecosystems.
Nick Reo 40:54
When we're engaging with invasive species, you know, maybe we could be generous in spirit and in heart, even if what we're doing is cutting, or burning, or removing, or what have you, or hunting, it could be done with kindness and generosity and understanding that it's not their fault.
Sadie Couture 41:10
Nick's approach could at times challenge, a traditional conservation approach, especially for situations where an introduced species is so established, like on Mayne. It makes me think that a good first step to dealing with the deer problem is to strive to build closer relationships with the nonhumans in our lives, and then maybe solutions or ways forward could come from that place that Nick talks about, being generous in spirit when we engage with these plant and animal nations.
Russell Gendron 41:39
I really liked the spirit of generosity Nick brings to his interactions with plants and animals. It reaffirms my own attempts at chatting with the crows, the trees, and even the rats I encounter in my own neighborhood. I think it's safe to say that for most settlers like myself, this isn't a practice that we're explicitly taught to value. But I feel like a lot of folks come to it naturally. If you live in a place for long enough, you get to know your neighbors, and you notice when someone new arrives. But when a recent arrival is a plant or a nonhuman animal, rather than welcoming them, we usually just try to go back to the way things were. Instead, we could take a moment to consider a larger role that an introduced species might play, and how we can adapt to a future together.
Sadie Couture 42:33
And when the way things were was always a product of the active efforts of indigenous people to create the ecosystem they wanted, going back isn't an option, given how many changes settler colonialism has brought to these territories.
Russell Gendron 42:51
I guess what it seems we need to go back to is acting from a place of knowledge, with specific goals in mind about how we want our communities to look, as Peter has said, the solutions will stem from those community goals.
Sadie Couture 43:05
And there are many indigenous nations and people who have the knowledge of, and relationships with, the land that is so valuable when thinking about these issues. So we started talking about how this could happen specifically with deer on the Gulf islands. And we heard about a really cool initiative happening on a neighboring island to Mayne.
Adam Huggins 43:25
You're talking about Galiano Island, right?
Sadie Couture 43:27
Yeah, I am.
Adam Huggins 43:29
Okay, so this is-, this is me. I have to-, I have to talk about this now. Yeah, this is a little awkward because I usually get to talk on this program about things other people are doing, and today we're talking about something that I'm doing. So I'm a little bit close to this,
Sadie Couture 43:45
turning the tables on you.
Adam Huggins 43:47
I know!
Sadie Couture 43:48
Tell us about Feed the People.
Adam Huggins 43:49
So the Feed the People workshop is a partnership between a number of different organizations here on the Gulf islands, including the Galiano Conservancy where I work, and several elders on Penelakut Island, Karen and Richard Charlie, and Steven Sylvester. And essentially they hunt deer on Conservancy lands, and then over the course of two days, teach workshop participants how to respectfully butcher, and preserve, and prepare that harvest. Simple as that.
Russell Gendron 44:25
Galiano Island, like Mayne, also struggles with a huge deer population. Although in their case, it's actually mostly black tail. Both islands are small, and relatively food insecure. We were interested in the Feed the People workshop because it suggested that the deer could be the solution to their own problem.
Sadie Couture 44:46
Right. In this specific case, harvesting some deer not only provides a source of protein for people and reduces the strain on plant communities. It means that the remaining deer will be better fed and healthier overall.
Russell Gendron 44:59
Yeah. It can actually be a win-win-win for everyone involved: humans, deer and our ecosystems at large.
Sadie Couture 45:08
So we went to check out the workshop for ourselves to learn how hunting and preparing food can be part of these relationships of care for our communities.
Steven Sylvester 45:17
These animals are very fresh, so it should be very easy to skin. So all you do is you grab his knuckle and you start the skinning process and you just touch the knife. You don't have to be hacking, just easy touch, and the skin just falls apart. So you do both sides of the knee. It's very fast.
Steven Sylvester 45:52
And that's it, that's all you do is just clear the skin around the legs. And then you start the back.
Sadie Couture 46:06
This is elder Steven Sylvester from Penelakut nation, leading the Feed the People workshop on Galiano Island.
Russell Gendron 46:15
It was a beautiful rainy fall day. And Steven, Richard, and Karen came over from their home on Penelakut Island to share their knowledge of deer harvesting with the mainly settler community on Galiano.
Sadie Couture 46:30
There were a range of different comfort levels and experiences in the workshop. Some people raised their own animals, and were comfortable butchering, but had never worked with deer. Some people it was their first time processing an animal. And some people like me don't even eat meat.
Russell Gendron 46:47
Yeah, how was that for you?
Sadie Couture 46:49
I was nervous before we went. I've never really experienced something like that before. And I wasn't sure how I was going to feel. And at the same time, I was really excited and interested. But I had nothing to worry about. Karen, Richard, and Steven created such a good learning environment. They made me feel so comfortable. And the way they were interacting with the deer and teaching us to interact with them as well ended up feeling a lot less weird to me than seeing meat in the grocery store.
Steven Sylvester 47:17
That's all you do, shape around his knees.
Steven Sylvester 47:26
Just around these elbows and on the back of his back leg. That's where the most tendons are too.
Karen Charlie 47:34
We're just taking off the lower, the lower leg, just so it'll be easier for us to soak it in the bowl. So the flies are not going to come and lay their eggs on it. So that's what we're trying to do is to preserve the meat. So the flies are not going to come and lay the shaya'.
Russell Gendron 47:54
And so how important of a part of the process is-
Karen Charlie 47:59
keeping the flies away? It's a very important process. Because if we get maggots and other bugs on it, it's ruined.
Sadie Couture 48:09
Karen, Richard, and Steven were so good at explaining everything in making people feel comfortable with the process.
Russell Gendron 48:15
And John, you were saying in the beginning I remember you talking about how this is new for you, using knives and cutting up meat. How's it going for you?
Autumn 48:23
Glenn, It's going good. I feel very supported by how they've arranged it.
Autumn 48:24
Yeah, yeah.
Russell Gendron 48:27
What you got there, Autumn?
Autumn 48:28
You can feel, feeling is a lot more important than I thought it was gonna be, just feeling the animal and-
Autumn 48:29
We're doing the pecs-trap now. Pretty sure you can feel the line.
Autumn 48:34
Yes, yes.
Autumn 48:46
and where everything goes together, comes off together.
Sadie Couture 48:52
And that feeling is a part of what Karen, Richard, and Steven are hoping to share. Their family and community has been hunting on these territories for generations. Here's Karen and Steven.
Karen Charlie 49:03
My people have hunted one way for a very long time. I've watched my grandfather hunt, my dad hunt, my husband hunt, my brother's hunt. Now my kids are hunting.
Steven Sylvester 49:19
My boys know how to hunt and most of my nephews came to me to learn how to hunt.
Sadie Couture 49:25
Hunting and harvesting is about food security and culture. But it's also a part of their practice of, and commitment to, stewardship.
Steven Sylvester 49:34
Everything has to be run like a stewardship, everybody has to learn their place in our community. So my perfect dream is a lot of understanding, more people living off the land. Because if we had even 10 more hunters out here, like the deer population will be cut back so much that you know it'd be variable.
Karen Charlie 49:56
We keep our culture going. That's what I'm doing. I'm teaching my young people, how to look for medicine in the woods, how to harvest from the ocean, and how to look after the land; we're not going to be over harvesting, but trying to maintain a healthy balance. Not just for us, but for everybody.
Steven Sylvester 50:27
We are stewards of the land, and we belong to the land, the land does not belong to us. You can own 10 acres, but in the end, if you're gone, the land's still gonna be there, with or without your name. You have to make sure people understand that we are a keystone in this community. Without our people, a lot of things would have failed. Right from when that first boats came in, that we help people adapt and overcome their problems here. I think it's our responsibility now, to do this, to lay the groundwork for this, because there has to be understanding. Only with understanding can we have progress. Without progress we're gonna fail.
Sadie Couture 51:14
The guidance and leadership from these Penelakut elders is so generous. And for me, it highlights what we already know, that through experience on the land, indigenous peoples recognize the necessity of responsible stewardship.
Russell Gendron 51:30
But if we hop back across active pass from Galiano island to Mayne, we can put some of these lessons to work. But it's not as simple as just start hunting.
Sadie Couture 51:41
No, it's not. Although there is some movement in that direction. Hunting still really divides the community on Mayne for the time being.
Russell Gendron 51:50
It's not clear when there will be a consensus. I'd like to think most residents want what Rob wants: to live on an island with a rich biodiversity and a range of ecosystem types. But we don't all agree on how to get there,
Sadie Couture 52:05
or how we balance our environment along with our other values, like public safety, and the economy. And if our collective indecision translates to inaction, we're just committing ourselves to the current trajectory, even if most of us can see that it's not necessarily good.
Russell Gendron 52:23
Well, the political landscape has made it pretty clear that our collective decision making structures need some reevaluation. But wherever we go from here, we can start by grounding our roles and responsibilities within a web of relationships, human and otherwise.
Sadie Couture 52:42
And going forward, our ecosystems are just going to continue to be affected by climate change. We can expect unfamiliar plants and animals to be introduced practically everywhere. But all of them come from somewhere. If we look to those places, there will be people with their own deep history, and maybe some lessons to share. If we can recognize these creatures as more than invaders, we might see that they come bearing gifts.
Karen Charlie 53:13
It's all about being adaptable. Working with the land, you have to learn how to be adaptable. The world is constantly changing. So is the ocean. Like with a salmon. We're over harvested. So our next meat is deer meat. So that's what we have to rely on right now. Is the deer meat because our salmons gone and that was the main staple of our diet. So it's always about working with change. The world is constantly changing, and we have to do with it. Here's another medicine right there. [fades]
Mendel Skulski 54:16
Producers Sadie Couture, and Russell Gendron. Thanks to Sadie and Russell, and to all their guests on this episode: J'SINTEN John Elliott; Paula Bucholtz; Peter Arcese; Rob Underhill; Nick Reo; Steven Sylvester; and Karen Charlie. Special thanks to Richard Charlie, Ramsay Sylvester, Deblekah Guin, Hannah Tollefson. Adrian Levine, the Galiano Conservancy, the Feed the People, organizers and participants, and the whole community of Mayne island.
Mendel Skulski 54:56
Music by D. Nettles; J'SINTEN John Elliot; Chad Crouch; The Joy Drops; Halftone Banjo Orchestra; You’re Me; Hotspring; Aner Andros; Campbell Bay after dark; Yu Su; Meteoric Twin; and Sunfish Moon Light
Mendel Skulski 55:20
Future Ecologies is an independent production. You can help make this work possible by supporting the show at patreon.com/futureecologies or just by leaving a nice rating and review. Find us at futureecologies.net or on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram. Thanks for listening.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai and edited by Cyrus Tosco